PUP: “I wasn’t even trying to write a record. I just wanted to let what came out happen”

It’s a strange time to be a Canadian. In a development that follows the once seemingly ridiculous plot of the film South Park: Bigger, Longer & Uncut, relations between the United States and Canada have become strained, as Donald Trump continues to make enemies of everyone, as part of a trade war in which he’s threatened to annex America’s neighbours to the north.

For Stefan Babcock of Toronto punks PUP, it’s no laughing matter. The singer, songwriter and guitarist – who claims he couldn’t be friends with a Trump supporter – sighs that the hyperbole and chest-beating is white noise to distract from attempts to “push through terrible policies”, as well as affecting livelihoods in his homeland.

“I don’t blame any of my American friends for not really knowing how this is affecting Canada,” says Stefan, who right now happens to be in Los Angeles where his girlfriend lives and he comes for songwriting work. “[Americans have] got enough bullshit to worry about here, domestically, but they do think it’s kind of a joke, the idea of Canada as the 51st state. But there are real consequences from that sort of rhetoric. Talking about annexing a sovereign nation is really dangerous.”

Meanwhile, the build-up to making PUP’s forthcoming fifth album, Who Will Look After The Dogs?, was a strange time to be Stefan – a quiet, considered 37-year-old. His long-term relationship had ended, which, combined with a creative dynamic with his bandmates that can be “contentious”, saw the frontman take himself off to his home in northern Ontario to do his favourite thing in the world: write songs. This time, however, he did so without an agenda. “It wasn’t about worrying about the songs being good or not,” explains Stefan. “I wasn’t even trying to write this record. I just wanted to let what came out happen – and it just so happened that I felt good about a lot of the material that was coming out.”

While Stefan admits his working routine sounds “extremely regimented” – unsurprising for a man whose craving for structure has made touring difficult – it’s simply what came naturally. Most days would include plenty of time in a room furnished with guitars, a piano and recording equipment. Meanwhile, these stints would be interspersed with lunch, dinner, and an attempt to interact with at least one other human being – oh, and by our count, five walks with Moose, Stefan’s four-and-a-half-year-old rescue dog he thinks is a German shepherd/husky mix, but knows for certain is “a very good boy”.

The first song that emerged from this self-imposed writing retreat was Hallways, which is a break-up song, even if Stefan is keen to clarify Who Will Look After The Dogs? is not a break-up record. Meanwhile, its accompanying video, featuring surreal imagery of Stefan sinking quicksand-like into a rug, suggests how stifling a domestic setting can be in light of a major life change. How strange was it, then, to not just write a brutally honest song featuring lyrics like ‘The first night without you / I collapsed on the living room floor / What the hell am I gonna do if I can never see you anymore?’ but to use that heartbreak as the basis for a promo?

“It was very strange,” nods Stefan, who admits he hadn’t wanted Hallways to be a single for that exact reason. Thankfully, he was won over by the involvement of acclaimed director Sterling Larose, whose visual aesthetic meant the video didn’t need to have a narrative but could just look cool, which softened the edges of the darkness.

While the title Who Will Look After The Dogs? comes from the lyrics to Hallways (‘But I can’t die yet ’cause who will look after the dog?’), there are other interpretations to be had. Given the way in which this conversation with Stefan began, and the album’s artwork featuring a humanless scene with several dogs driving a car, is it a statement about humanity’s self-destructive tendencies? The band’s new merch does, after all, include pairs of sunglasses with mushroom clouds on the lenses.

“There’s definitely an apocalyptic joke in there,” agrees Stefan of the bleak undercurrent. “I don’t know if it’s exactly political as much as it is nihilistic, but there’s definitely that element. The description I had written for the artist, who did a great job painting that cover, was to allude to the heartbreaking lyric but also be so over-dramatic that it’s almost funny. There’s humour to it, but also, the world’s going to end, so who’s going to look after these dudes?”

When three-quarters of PUP spoke to K! in early 2022, they were reluctant to expound upon their suggestion that making that year’s The Unravelling Of PUPTHEBAND was “a slow and inevitable descent into self-destruction”. Three years on, with just Stefan chatting today, one might think he could discuss the topic of their inner workings more freely. He is, as it turns out, but it’s with the resignation, or perhaps the celebration, of knowing that the points at which the four men diverge is what fuels their enterprise. “The tension between us is what makes it work,” he admits. “There’s definitely a magic to the four of us working together. We approach things so differently and have different skill sets. We push each other really hard, and that can feel frustrating at times.”

So, too, can responses to Stefan’s efforts. Given his love of songwriting, and how long he often labours on a single song, the prospect of presenting what he’s done to the rest of PUP comes with a frisson of pride. Sadly, the tenderness that’s gone into his craft isn’t always reflected in the rather functional way it’s received by his bandmates – guitarist Steve Sladkowski, bassist Nestor Chumak and drummer Zack Mykula. “They’ll say something like, ‘I guess we’ll work on this on Thursday,’ which can, at times, be demoralising,” admits Stefan. “But we all expect a lot from each other.”

So, does writing songs for and with other artists give him a healthier sense of appreciation for his efforts? “I don’t really think about it that way,” he explains. “I just love writing songs, and am curious about how other people do it. When I’m writing for myself and for PUP, I know what my voice is and what sounds right coming out of my mouth. There’s a freedom, I think, in writing for other people, where I don’t have to be myself and a person that people expect certain things from. It’s hard for me to write a genuine, heartfelt love song in my own voice, as it’s not the kind of song that would happen in PUP’s world, but that doesn’t mean that I don’t want to write a song like that and I don’t have those emotions.”

Back when PUP became a touring band, around 2014, Stefan received a diagnosis of depression, after experiencing mental health issues since the age of 13. “It sounds backwards but I thought, ‘Thank god there’s something wrong with me and this isn’t just how life is,’” he reflects. Being in a band is therefore a difficult thing. Formative years meant a lack of stability – and “a lack of stability is the enemy of strong mental health”.

On PUP’s self-titled debut album, Stefan’s writing solely focused on his own experiences. Thanks to years of therapy, though, these days his perspective is more empathetic. “I’m always conscious that there is another side to the story I’m telling, and I try not to disregard [someone else’s]. I think that’s a sign of maturity. I know I’ve been an asshole in the past, and nobody likes to think of themselves as that. I’ve been growing a lot in the past 10 years. I think a lot of that is reflected in the back half of the [new] album – letting some of the tougher emotions that are more recent in my life settle, being more objective about them, and seeing those emotions for what they are. It’s a skill and a blessing for anybody to be able to step back from their own bullshit at a certain point and acknowledge that maybe the narrative you told yourself was not the true narrative.”

One of the latter tracks on Who Will Look After The Dogs? is the brilliantly wired but wonky Best Revenge, which features the lyric, ‘Didn’t even know what was right in front of me.’ What are some of the moments that have helped Stefan, a self-proclaimed introspective and glass-half-full-kind-of-guy, to have those realisations? “We did this arena tour in Canada, supporting Sum 41, and I was very depressed and feeling bad about myself. But playing to 20,000 people a night, and having them enjoy and appreciate us, made me grateful for opportunities like that. Most nights I’d stop for a second and try to remind myself that I might feel miserable when I get offstage and face the rest of my life, but right now I’ve got to be thankful that this is what I get to experience, because it’s what I’ve always wanted. That kind of gratitude extends in all directions in my life.”

So, with PUP’s fortunes providing firmer ground beneath Stefan’s feet, how does he feel about the prospect of touring these days, given that he once told K! it was “really unhealthy” for him? That was, he reminds us, back when his band was doing 200-plus shows a year; in 2025, it’ll be more like 80 to 100. “It’s still a shitload,” suggests Stefan. “But it’s not insane. I think we’re really lucky that we’ve got to a level where we can tour in a bit more comfort than we have in the past. The more comfortable you can be on tour, the more of a routine you can have, which keeps me feeling normal.”

Stefan takes a moment to clarify his stance.

“I love playing live, but it’s the other stuff around touring that is challenging. I know that we’re in our 30s and playing in a punk rock band that isn’t going to go on forever, so I really have to enjoy the good moments. Approaching things with that attitude has gone a long way in making touring, if not fun, then tolerable for me.”

Who Will Look After The Dogs? is due out on May 2 via Little Dipper / Rise Records

Read this next:

• The Menzingers: “I don’t know many bands who are all best friends. It’s crazy how close we are after all these years”
• “A kebab nearly took my life”: 13 Questions with The Dirty Nil’s Luke Bentham
• Hot Mulligan: “Everything fell into place… There’s a lot less searching and a lot more finding, y’know?”